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Great company at fair price debate

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3:28 pm
December 28, 2011


jalleninvest

Coronado, CA

Member

posts 22

7

Post edited 7:30 am – December 28, 2011 by jalleninvest


Graeme said:

jalleninvest said:

 Graham's intrinsic value formula pegs Nordie's intrinsic value, as I calculate it, at about $70.  That's not much of a margin of safety.

 

40% doesn't suck…

 


 

It isn't much of a margin of safety, really.  "Intrinsic value" isn't carved in inevitable stone, a holy grail or something.  It is merely one indicia of value, a tool.

I analogize it to the process real estate appraisers employ when they arrive at an opinion of value.  Depending on the type of property, of course, an appraiser will use the "market approach", comparable recent sales in the area and make adjustments for significant differences between the known sale and the property being appraised, and will also use the "income approach," figuring out what the rental value would be and assigning an appropriate cap rate, and the "replacement approach", estimating what it would cost to build that same improvement at current prices.

A value investor detemines value usually by reference to several methods, comparing the results and using judgment and experience to arrive at an opinion which (s)he will rely on in making an investment decision.

In the ValueLine database, of the 6,527 companies currently listed, about 2,000 have an intrinsic value which can be calculated.  The range of the intrinsic value to price ratio is from -423.5 (stock price $.03, intrinsic value -$12.70) to 18,553.5 (stock price $.01, intrinsic value 185.535).

Obviously, the use of intrinsic value is subject to some common sense and other limitations, just another tool to help value investors sift through the vast tides of irrelevant and relevant information that washes up every day.

11:20 am
December 28, 2011


Graeme

Austin, Texas

Member

posts 183

6

jalleninvest said:

 Graham's intrinsic value formula pegs Nordie's intrinsic value, as I calculate it, at about $70.  That's not much of a margin of safety.

 

40% doesn't suck…

 

11:18 am
December 28, 2011


Graeme

Austin, Texas

Member

posts 183

5

jalleninvest said:

  Value investors waste no time trying to forecast,  a habit which would help us all. 


 

I know that this is the ideal, and the perfect situation would to be handed a dollar with a 50c price tag, but just like everything forecasting must be on a spectrum. There can't be two camps: people who invest via forecasting and people who invest with absolutely no forecasting at all. Maybe the 50c-for-a-dollar metaphor is another one that, while illuminating, has its limits. So the question is, what are those limits. Should value investors pay absolutely no attention to anything future related? Can we? If you're not forecasting the future, how can you say what something is worth now, since the company is still going to exist in the future? Should you take the 10 year averages of all the metrics, do the DCF and say that this is what it is worth? When is it right to say "a company has done this for 10 years, it's safe to assume they will continue"? 

 

To me, saying "value investors waste no time trying to forecast" seems to translate to saying "value investors just need to look at book value." Which seems to make sense: book value is the first thing I look at and the central figure I set all my screeners around. 

6:33 am
December 28, 2011


somrh

Member

posts 336

4

My big question would have to be whether or not they paid a "fair" price or they really did get it cheap. I'm not sure exactly how to go about answering that question so I'll distract myself with your "technical" question and get back around to it.

If a company has a high CROIC (like $JWN) would you give it a lower discount rate?

I think the answer to that is "not necessarily". The discount rate, in theory, is supposed to be a function of risk. Basically, standard economic theory takes only one observation from behavioral finance and builds that into their theory. That observation is that people tend to be risk averse. As a result, in order to entice someone who is risk averse to take on risk, you have to increase the potential return or expected value.

In spite of the fact that economics is a "social science" it frankly does a lousy job of dealing with social realities and even a lousier job of being a science. They're great at model building but the models don't stand up to empirical research (assuming any empirical research is even bothered with).

But here's the idea. If you give people two choices:

Choice A: Receive $100

Choice B: 50% chance of receiving $200 and 50% chance of receiving nothing.

Most people will choose A. The expected value of both choices are the same. Now if you modify the percentages and/or modify the payout so that the expected value is greater, people will become more likely to choose choice B to choice A.

So from this one kind of experiment, they built the idea that there has to be a risk premium to holding risky assets.

So in the case  of your CROIC example, this reallly is taking past free cash flows and projecting them into the future. Of course this is hardly certain by any stretch of the imagination and is quite unlikely. The theory would probably tell you that in reality you have future expectations which amounts to a distribution of possible returns for which you can calculate an expected value. That distribution is where "risk" comes in.

The expected value tells you what return, on average you will get, but your actual results will vary. For example, in Choice B, the expected value is $100 but there is no possibility of receiving $100; you'll either receive $200 or nothing.

Granted, I think the whole thing is dubious for several reasons. For one, the distribution is entirely uncertain. What possible data set can we use to even use as our basis for modeling that data set with a distribution? (That's a rhetorical question; I don't know either.) So I'm not sure how we can actually fill in with a distribution to arrive at an expected value.

But even supposing we make up a distribution, I'm not sure how we can come up with a function which maps distributions to discount rates. I have no doubt Gene Fama has a function which can perform such mappings but I'm not as smart as Gene Fama. You'll have to ask him how that works.

If a company (Graeme Corp, trading at $GBD) has a croic of 20% that means that if they borrow $1 from the First Bank of Somrh, $GBD makes $1.20, right?

They would make $.20 per year on each dollar borrowed. This assumes, of course, that CROIC actually tells you how much marginal FCF one could get by investing more money. Some businesses are unable to expand without lowering their return on investment. They'll make more money but it won't be at the same rate. They might only make 10% on any future capital invested.

But I do think this quote from Charlie Munger (found here) is worthwhile:

Over the long term, it's hard for a stock to earn a much better return than the business which underlies it earns. If the business earns 6% on capital over 40 years and you hold it for that 40 years, you're not going to make much different than a 6% return even if you originally buy it at a huge discount. Conversely, if a business earns 18% on capital over 20 or 30 years, even if you pay an expensive looking price, you'll end up with a fine result.

I have no idea what discount rate one should choose here. I think the price one pays, however, will depend upon the company's growth prospects. If the firm with 18% return on capital can grow and maintain that 18%, then what price would be too much? *shrug*

11:11 pm
December 27, 2011


jalleninvest

Coronado, CA

Member

posts 22

3

Where is the margin of safety here, paying a fair price?  Munger convinced Buffett it was OK to buy a great company at a fair price instead of holding out for a fair company at a great price.

Why does Nordie's have a moat?  What is it?  Why is the current price a good deal?

When Berkshire started buying Coca Cola, it was in the dumps, price wise, having gone through a series of less than stellar performances.  Same with Washington Post.  Is Nordie's in the dumps or has it been?

There are a great many really well run companies with good products, good earnings, good potential that value investors simply will not touch because the price is too high for what they get, at these prices.  Nordie's, at about 5 times book value and a 14 P/E, seems on the high side of what might be good value.  Graham's intrinsic value formula pegs Nordie's intrinsic value, as I calculate it, at about $70.  That's not much of a margin of safety.

What is the company "worth?"  What do similar companies sell for?  What are the assets worth?

One thing value investors avoid is forecasting.  We want to pay for what we get now, not for a rosy future which may or may not materialize.  Value investors waste no time trying to forecast,  a habit which would help us all.  If the future works out, you have a good deal; if not, you have a margin of safety! Smile

One thing I have learned is that deals come and go but mistakes are forever!

 

 

 

11:07 pm
December 27, 2011


Jae Jun

Admin

posts 1464

2

Pay a fair price for a great company. In other words, buying a franchise company with earnings power.

You are spot on that I love the deep value plays more, but I still like to add one or two. I've always managed to do well with these types believe it or not.

For such a good company though, you have to be able to wait for a long time to buy and possibly wait even longer to sell.

Speaking of retailers, I'm currently looking at HIBB. Really great company all around. Stock price has done extremely well past couple of years too.

If I can get comfortable enough, I will put it  on my buy list.

 

If a company has high CROIC, look into the debt as well. How leveraged is it? Check whether the trend in debt ratios match thte CROIC for that year.

4:02 pm
December 27, 2011


Graeme

Austin, Texas

Member

posts 183

1

This is Buffet's big Graham divergence: pay a fair price for a great company. What do you guys think of this? 

My dilemma is: I love Nordstrom. A great company, great balance sheet, great performance, a retailer with a moat and great management. Past five years of CROIC is almost 20%. Revenue growing 8.7% for the past 10 years. FCF/share average over 10 years at just under $2.00. Good dividend. 

The dilemma is that at $50 they are fairly priced, maybe slightly under. I know this comes down to investment style (for example Jae, I know you don't touch great companies, fairly valued. You love that deep value.) What do you guys feel about these sorts of plays? 

 

Also, technical question regarding cost of capital discount rate. If a company has a high CROIC (like $JWN) would you give it a lower discount rate? If a company (Graeme Corp, trading at $GBD) has a croic of 20% that means that if they borrow $1 from the First Bank of Somrh, $GBD makes $1.20, right? I would consider that a pretty safe bet for cost of capital and I would lean more towards giving them a lower discount rate. Or is this totally out to lunch?

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