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Exit Strategy

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6:04 am
May 19, 2011


Graeme

Austin, Texas

Member

posts 122

10

Depends on your purchasing thesis. For example, I got XOM around $62 and I will barely entertain a thought of selling something that pays me twice (stock price increase, and sweet sweet dividend.)

But I bought HSKA at $4.92 because they were way under book and had a super boring and easy to understand business. They are nearing their book value, so I begin to entertain selling thoughts.

 

Your selling thesis should be the reciprocal of your buying thesis. Set it up before you buy.

7:22 pm
October 8, 2010


FIFOkid

Member

posts 58

9

I try to recoup my cost in the stock and own free shares with no exact parameter to follow.  Sometimes I sell half on a double. Typically I will sell into a positive news event especially if liquidity is a potential issue and occasionally if there is a negative change in macro fundamentals that is not obvious to the market. I have been using money supply data.

 

One thing on the buy side I have noticed that value investors ignore and I feel is key to success in stock picking is the business must have pricing power for what they sell/produce if they don't typically the investment will be disappointing.

 

 

10:05 am
August 17, 2010


darkgreen

San Diego

Member

posts 24

8

 

Hi all-

 

I wouldn't use stop loss, but stop limit orders. Stop loss guarantees execution but not price and on a day like the "flash crash" a few months ago you could wind up with lots of very bad liquidations. It happens more often than you think, that day just made the news because it affected the headline indexes.

 

  -Darkgreen

7:57 am
August 10, 2010


Jae Jun

Admin

posts 1336

7

From personal experience, although none of my trailing stops has ever worked out, I have found it easiest to simply set a pre determined sell order soon after I buy. It takes the emotions out and prevents me from trying to pick up pennies on huge days where the stock might appreciate 25% or so.

That sell order just kicks in and keeps emotions and greed out.

But the important point that we all agree on is that you should have an idea of when to sell when you buy. Buying is only half the story. It's the easy half.

7:03 pm
August 9, 2010


somrh

Member

posts 273

6

Jonathan Watson said:

Again, I think the important point here is deciding your sell price ahead of time and having the discipline to stick to it when the time comes.
 


 

I think that's pretty fair. Of course, that's also why I have sympathy for Graham's criteria which serves that purpose as well.

3:41 pm
August 7, 2010


Jonathan Watson

Los Angeles, CA

Member

posts 11

5

The trailing stop idea is a good one. The only thing is that I will have to enter it after the market price is above my sell point. I like the idea of knowing at what price I am going to sell when I buy a stock, but it wouldn't take much work to enter it after the stock has risen above intrinsic value.

As for determining intrinsic value- Buffet himself states that this a bit of a "nebulous" price point that two investors aren't likely to agree upon. He has said that even with the same information in front of them, he and Charlie Munger will disagree somewhat on the companies intrinsic value. Don't worry about being too specific with intrinsic value. I like to think of it as a range of values and not just one set dollar per share value down to the exact penny.

There are theories out there that suggest you start exiting your position at the low end of the intrinsic value estimate and complete it at the high end. (Maybe even enter a trailing stop after it reaches the high end and let the price run). Again, I think the important point here is deciding your sell price ahead of time and having the discipline to stick to it when the time comes.

As buy and hold forever- I imagine this works well when you are as good at finding value as Buffet & co.

8:37 am
August 7, 2010


somrh

Member

posts 273

4

Thanks for the link. I thought I had seen a thread on this at one point but couldn't find it for some reason. A few general comments.

1) I like the idea of having a fixed sell point ("intrinsic value") which you've both expressed. However, I have much difficulty with the concept of intrinsic value and relying on it in concrete terms. We can, of course, define intrinsic value in concrete terms (discounted future dividends, etc) but then how do we measure it and how well do our models actual arrive at intrinsic value?

Many different models exist which purport to calculate some sort of intrinsic value but none of them agree with eachother and it raises the question of how we might even test how well a model accurately measures intrinsic value. For these reasons I have issue with using intrinsic value as a sell criteria because it's not clear to me how to implement it.

This might be deserving of its own topic but here are my thoughts on "intrinsic value". I think the idea of intrinsic value is a useful paradigm and motivator for stock selection criteria. That paradigm suggests what things one might look at to find value. But then you need selection criteria. These criteria act as a sort of test which has the potential for both Type I and Type II error (here I have in mind the question: "is this stock undervalued?".) For me, I'm willing to use criteria that has a high Type II error provided that I can reduce, as far as possible, Type I error.

For example, consider the criteria of "purchasing stocks that sell for less than 2/3 NCAV". This has a high Type II error since it ignores all of the other undervalued stocks available. But historical evidence suggests that this screen is able to pick out undervalued stocks since. But it doesn't tell me a damned thing about what the intrinsic value of any of the stocks.

And unless there is some method to test models of intrinsic value, I see it as nothing more than a, perhaps, useful heuristic. All models of that sort will have Type II errors and there's no guarantee that the real intrinsic value of the issue is anywhere near what the model predicts. To me, this is fine provided that the model is still able to select underpriced stocks with relatively good accuracy even if the IV estimates themselves are wrong.

2) The thing I like about the "50% or 2 years" is that it has an exit strategy for the "value traps". This is something I don't like about Buffett's buy-and-hold strategy. There's no sense in holding on to a stock that isn't and, perhaps, won't ever go anywhere.

3) I agree with the idea of that selling in a week is/can be "reactionary" but it really depends on if you have criteria in place or not. Had the issue increased by 50% then I should have sold by Graham's criteria.

One option would be to look into TA. Although I suspect most of it is superstition, there have been studies that have shown its effectiveness (I've read an article that surveyed the literature so I couldn't tell you which strategies have any effect.) Obviously there are plenty of methodological issues that would have to be addressed before I would consider it. But the idea itself doesn't seem too far fetched to me (consider, for example, Robert Shiller's claim that there is a "price-feedback loop" which plays a role in determining human behavior in financial markets.)

4) Trailing stop – it's an interesting idea but I'd have to learn more about stop orders. In particular, I've read there can be issue with exchanges like NASDAQ. The "stop" might be triggered not by an actual sale but by a bid which could be quite low.

2:09 pm
August 6, 2010


Jae Jun

Admin

posts 1336

3

Yea the topic is under "When to Sell" but that's fine.

 

I also had a guest author who wrote about his when to sell strategy and he also mentioned that he would sell after a 50% gain.

 

I personally don't agree with this. If the price is at a point where there is a big upside to the intrinsic value, I hold.

If the price is about 10% below intrinsic value and in a tough market, I will take my gains.

Not a believer in hold forever as it isn't realistic for the most parts.

 

I do like Jonathan's selling point 2 though.

Have you ever tried a trailing stop? You can protect your gains and at the same time, let it run.

 

10:25 am
August 6, 2010


Jonathan Watson

Los Angeles, CA

Member

posts 11

2

I definitely think "learning" investors should discuss when to sell as well as when to buy. (It seems that when to sell is almost never discussed).

Late in his career Benjamin Graham espoused buying companies when their P/E was less than 7 (or 10) and selling after 2 years or after the stock rose 50%. (There are also some other rough guidelines from Graham; selling a stock after it doubles, not holding stocks with a P/E >50, and a couple of others I can't recall right now).

In F Wall Street, Joe Ponzio advocates selling when the company reaches its intrinsic value. The nice thing about this is that you can determine a sell point ahead of time, enter a limit order when you buy the stock and it will sell automatically when your sell price is reached. The good thing here is that it takes the emotion out of the decision to sell. (i.e. it avoids the trap of "the price has gone up X%, I am going to hang on and see if it goes up a little more).

As you probably know, Buffet/Munger believe in holding stocks forever.

Personally, I wouldn't advocate selling after only a week of holding. The exception to this would be if you need the money or you have found a better investment. Obviously you will acquire transaction costs and capital gains taxes, but it also sets up a "reactionary" attitude towards the market. I prefer to make my own judgements about when I am going to sell (and buy) and ignore the market the rest of the time. Limit orders are very helpful in this way.

The other thing to consider is what happens if the price keeps going up, or never gets back down into your "buy" range. Since no one can predict the future, you may miss out on the price rise. Of course, this could be the high price for a while and you may have wished you had sold (but hopefully you bought with more margin of safety than that).

I have two ways of selling:

1. Sell after the stock price reaches the company's intrinsic value. This is determined ahead of time and I enter a sell limit order at the time I buy. When the stock reaches that price, it sells automatically. No emotion.

2. Sell 1/2 my position after the stock price doubles and hang on to the remaining position indefinitely or until the fundamentals of the company change.

 

Congratulations on finding a company whose price went up 19% in a week! Hopefully the market will continue to recognize the value you found!

6:14 am
August 6, 2010


somrh

Member

posts 273

1

I could have sworn I had seen a topic on this (or at least this mentioned) but I can't seem to find it and I think it's worth discussing. When to sell?

The most common view I know of is the one suggested by Benjamin Graham: 50% or 2 years. Is this what you do?

Part of what promted this was a recent position I took in FLXS at $11.00 on 7/30. As of close yesterday (8/5) it was priced at $13.10 for a 19% gain. (This isn't bragging. It was shear luck. I'm much more used to buying something and seeing it drop 19%.) One temptation I have is to lock in the gain and perhaps retake the position if it gets down to a lower price again.

The only return consideration I have is tax considerations regarding short vs long term gains.

FWIW, I will most likely just hold it and watch the price drop back down to $11.00. I'll kick myself and then patiently wait for the price to go back up again.

But that still leaves open the question – when to sell. (You can ignore my example if you'd prefer. I'm more interested in what sort of thoughts people have on exit strategies.)

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